WONT START

Got a technical query? Found another 0.02bhp? Ask/tell the world.

Moderators: Paul, slparry, Gromit

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:17 am

Wire diagrams for USA and UK R1100S from my Clymer manual.
Want better? - PM me with your e-mail address and I shall PDF them to you

Image

Image

Image

Image

User avatar England
stevesilver
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:18 pm
Location: Bromley

Re: WONT START

Postby stevesilver » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:19 pm

Wow, Hay ewe,

You have been busy, make my head hurt too. Thing is, till this crap with the alarm started the bike ran perfectly.

I think 1 of these plug in boxes this guy made has cooked something electrical somewhere.

My haynes manual has good wiring diagrams in it, not that I fully understand them. I did put a pic up on one of my many posts mentioning a 15A fuse that seems to be in the circuit somewhere for the starter. No body knows where it is. It's not in the fuse box, (all fuses tested by the way)I have rung MH motorcycles near me, he is a BMW specialist, and there is a separate fuse from the fuse box but he said if I have ignition lights its not that.

From time to time I go and stand and scratch my head next to the bike, but think its too complicated for me.

I cant thank you enough for the thought and effort you have put into my problem. I will have another go whilst I wait for this guy to come look at it.

Fantastic group of people on here, sorry for hi jacking your post to :D

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:19 am

No worries, i enjoy stuff like this, gives good brain exercise.
If i was closer would offer to come by.

I dont think you hijacked my thread, i think your situation fits perfectly!

I think something is cooked / broken (obviously) as well, what i am trying to do is careful process of elimination in a logical order (though some may not agree with my logic)
The GSpot on ADVrider is also a fantastic resource as is UKGSer, remember that these machines are pretty much the same underneath.

Will post more later.
Please do post up anything you find and the result, could well benefit somebody else later

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:25 am

Talked about this with work mates at lunchtime.

We are in aviation, helicopters, and over the years have got many aircraft from many sources. The ones with after market kits installed are usually more troublesome than ones that don't and the more mods, the worse, even when the information is availble....
The alarm system was fitted and then something added to make the alarm think it wasnt there, and now you have removed the system.

Our thought is the first thing to check is the fuel pump actually works.
Going on logic that the fuel pump is servicable, then there is an open circuit somewhere (yeah, we know that - bear with me)
Work backwards, check the wiring from the pump and the fuel sensor level then to the connector block.
are the wires connected properly? did you remove them from the connector plug for some reason? does the connector plug only connect one way?

Is the battery fuly charged / fully servicable?
When you put the multimeter across it it may show as good, but has it dropped a cell and so when it comes to start does it actually have enough oommpphh?

When you/we have established that that the fuel pump is functioning and the that battery is 100%, its down to checking wiring / logic

Not knowing what was affected / disconnected / what you did of course makes it more difficult.
This evening looking at the WDM (Wire Diagram Manual) and there is a brown earth wire from the fuel level sensor that joins to the dial needle damping and also the directly to the negative on teh battery. if there is a break here, I dont think the fuel pump would operate. The WDM only shows one connection block which I think will be at the tank. After that, try to check the wire run all the way to the battery.

As you know what a bitch it is to get the side panels and tank off, I am not going to go that deep on mine, but if its anything like my GS, all the wire bundles will be wrapped / sheathed so unless there is a break in the wire inside the sheath, you could be ok just checking the ends. If you can identify the wire, you could run a continuity test. (if its anything like my GS, by now the other rubbery sheathing will all be perished and broken - but I live in the topics and ride it 250 days a year so yours may not be)

Suggestion was made that it could be a ground point.
This ties up with checking the wire i mention above.

Another wire comes from fuel level sensor block, white and green in my manual and connects to a a group of other of white and green wires from Valve #1, Valve #2, and Timing Valve. What these are I dont actually know. At first, I thought they were the HES pick-ups, but the HES is showing at the top of the page (page 729) so I dont know what these valves are at the moment.

That doesnt particuly help you/us, so I shall read up and post more next.

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:43 am

well, at the moment I cant find what these valves are.

And, lets not loose sight of the simple things.

The alarm system - is it also an immobiliser system?
Do you know what system the alarm immobilises?

I suspect not, because if you did, what is stop a criminal knowing, and then identifying the specific system and causing the bike to operate.
As I think about that, it is somewhat irrelevant because the alarm system has been removed - or is it relevant?

If the alarm is an immobiliser system as well, and fitted to a FI machine, easiest way to prevent it running is to prevent the fuel pump operating.

Is/ was there a wire(s) connected to the fuel pump?
you have removed the alarm system and if there were additional wires somewhere in to the fuel pump, have you reconnected them correctly.
I am thinking that the easiest (only?) way to prevent the fuel pump running would be insert a relay between the fuel level sensor and the fuel pump. There is no an open circuit there becuase although you removed the alarm wiring, you didnt reconnect the wires.

The bike ran for a short while and ran like a bag of spanners becuase it was using some fuel that remains in the fuel system. you only ran it for a few moments and so it didnt run out of fuel - but the sounds of it, it was running out of fuel.

Ok, thats me for day, really hoping you can get in to check this and see what is there over the weekend.

Hay Ewe^

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:03 pm

Had a thought this morning, checked the wdm, that wont work.
After all the above, check the fuel pump relay. Even just pulling it out and re-racking it could be enough.
L8R

Australia
Jeff Highland
Posts: 83
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 10:03 pm

Re: WONT START

Postby Jeff Highland » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Steve, this is probably the best non-running diagnosis guide.

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtop ... 69&t=21616

In particular the method of testing the fuel pump by bridging the relay and checking for flow at the return line
The poor running last time it did start sounds very much like a failing fuel pump to me (or blown/ leaking hose within the fuel tank)

I would not discount the possibility of a coincidental failure of another component as well as the problems with the alarm removal

User avatar England
stevesilver
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:18 pm
Location: Bromley

Re: WONT START

Postby stevesilver » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:55 pm

Bloody hell guys, what can I say, all the time and effort and discussing it at work too, I feel honoured.

I dont get a lot of time off as not only do I have my shop to run I have another job part time too.

As I've mentioned I have a go at most things on my bikes I owned, usually with success, unfortunately the electrics I dont feel confident about.

As this highly recommended electrical bloke who is going to look isnt coming any time soon, I will have a look at it again.

I know I was pulling on the pipes connected to the tank quite strongly, as I wasnt brave enough to disconnect them all.

The theory with the fuel pump sounds pretty sound.
Just why after using the kill switch to turn off it seems to be permanently off.

Thanks again, will let you know how I get on...

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:11 am

stevesilver wrote:
I know I was pulling on the pipes connected to the tank quite strongly, as I wasnt brave enough to disconnect them all.

The theory with the fuel pump sounds pretty sound.
Just why after using the kill switch to turn off it seems to be permanently off.

Thanks again, will let you know how I get on...


could be something in that....

I have my 1150GS tank off at the moment and the fuel pump / level sensor assembly out. I am quite sure that the internals are pretty much the same, but with no level sensor.

Note - my 1100S is March 2002 and my 1150GS is April 2002 - pretty close

Anyway, there are two wires from the fuel pump, Brown and Green. Mine exit through the fuel pump plate with a blue cover on the non-tank side. The brown and green wires are thicker.

You are going to have to take the tank off to do this properly, but you could work out which pins those are on the plug and connect directly to them that will be easier than taking the tank access plate off - but its not a 100% certain, you are checking the wireing and the pump. In my opinion, at this level of problem, it would be preferable to check the pump directly.

There are connectors on the breather hoses some where, and the two fuel lines.
If you have fuel in the tank, with the shape of these tanks, its going to be easier to syphon the fuel out before trying to remove the tank.

I expect that the electrical disconnect plug is just like my GS and it really is a simple squeeze the two tabs and wiggle to dissconnect. IF I have to have my tank off any time soon I shall be added in sealing quick connects, becuase it is such an awkward task. I am sure that there are plenty other threads about these on Boxertrix, UKGSer and ADV

Here are some pics for reference

Image
Image

User avatar England
stevesilver
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:18 pm
Location: Bromley

Re: WONT START

Postby stevesilver » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:29 pm

Jeff Highland wrote:Steve, this is probably the best non-running diagnosis guide.

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtop ... 69&t=21616

In particular the method of testing the fuel pump by bridging the relay and checking for flow at the return line
The poor running last time it did start sounds very much like a failing fuel pump to me (or blown/ leaking hose within the fuel tank)

I would not discount the possibility of a coincidental failure of another component as well as the problems with the alarm removal


Cheers Jeff, have joined that forum and that guide does look very useful.

As this electrical guy doesn't appear to be interested in my bike am now going to try it myself.

Have printed out all the tips you guys have given me, and off the link you posted Jeff.

Will start with the fuel pump, just gotta find time to do it now...

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping I have dislocated something whilst pulling the tank about.....

User avatar Australia
Hay Ewe^
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:59 pm
Location: Far North Queensland - AUS

Re: WONT START

Postby Hay Ewe^ » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:42 pm

I had an off last weekend on my 1150GS, in a river and ejected to the right side of the moto.
When I picked him up, I had kicked / hooked the left side throttle body and it was rotated in the rubber boots quite a bit.
it ran like a bag of spanners - when it did run!
it was a long 600km home!

the plug to the TPS was damaged so I replaced that and no change.
It would run sifficiently well with the TPS unplugged so it was getting fuel / air / spark and runs well between 2250 and 4000RPM - some kind of basic mode

I then pulled the TPS (the black square box ont he outside of the left throttle body) off my 1100S, installed to the 1150GS and all is good in the world again.

I dont think this is the case with your 1100S situation stevesilver - but adding this bit of knowledge to the collective of this thread

Great Britain
adam
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:40 pm

Re: WONT START

Postby adam » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:18 pm

My mate with a 'Big Bang' R1 had exactly this problem about a week before he was due to leave for the TT. Dealers couldn't book him in for a weeks, so he asked me to take a look. An hour later :lol: the plugs were out, and we had a spark, (don't laugh, the workshop manual on my Buell 1125 track bike says the engine has to be dropped for plug changes - there are 'work arounds' :roll: ) so the next thing to be checked was the wiring to the pump, and this was healthy, although the pump wouldn't work. I took the pump out of the tank, put an external 12v on it and it worked fine. I then phoned another mate with the same bike and went around to borrow his fuel pump relay, convinced this was the problem. I put his relay in, and the pump still wouldn't work, although it was fine on the other bike. Eventually, mate no.1 said in desparation, just buy anything you think you'll need. I bought a new relay, same part no. as the borrowed one, which wouldn't work on this bike, and it fired up straight away, and has run faultlessly since. It was all a bit of a mystery to me, and to Hutchy's mechanic, who's a friend of a friend and spent hours on the phone with me going through the on board diagnostics. It was never this complicated in the days of Uncle Joe Lucas aka 'The Prince of Darkness' :lol:

User avatar Great Britain
sjrainsford
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Lichfield

Re: WONT START

Postby sjrainsford » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:42 pm

stevesilver wrote:
Jeff Highland wrote:Steve, this is probably the best non-running diagnosis guide.

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtop ... 69&t=21616

In particular the method of testing the fuel pump by bridging the relay and checking for flow at the return line
The poor running last time it did start sounds very much like a failing fuel pump to me (or blown/ leaking hose within the fuel tank)

I would not discount the possibility of a coincidental failure of another component as well as the problems with the alarm removal


Cheers Jeff, have joined that forum and that guide does look very useful.

As this electrical guy doesn't appear to be interested in my bike am now going to try it myself.

Have printed out all the tips you guys have given me, and off the link you posted Jeff.

Will start with the fuel pump, just gotta find time to do it now...

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping I have dislocated something whilst pulling the tank about.....


Hi Steve, I know you're a fair drive away from the midlands, but if you can get the bike up here I'll gladly have a nose. I'm an electrical controls engineer so happy to help anyone for that matter.
2001 BMW R1100S (Merecat)
2008 Vespa GTS300 (Bianca)

User avatar England
stevesilver
Posts: 204
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:18 pm
Location: Bromley

Re: WONT START

Postby stevesilver » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:11 pm

sjrainsford wrote:
stevesilver wrote:
Jeff Highland wrote:Steve, this is probably the best non-running diagnosis guide.

http://www.bmbikes.org.uk/Forum/viewtop ... 69&t=21616

In particular the method of testing the fuel pump by bridging the relay and checking for flow at the return line
The poor running last time it did start sounds very much like a failing fuel pump to me (or blown/ leaking hose within the fuel tank)

I would not discount the possibility of a coincidental failure of another component as well as the problems with the alarm removal


Cheers Jeff, have joined that forum and that guide does look very useful.

As this electrical guy doesn't appear to be interested in my bike am now going to try it myself.

Have printed out all the tips you guys have given me, and off the link you posted Jeff.

Will start with the fuel pump, just gotta find time to do it now...

Fingers crossed, I'm hoping I have dislocated something whilst pulling the tank about.....


Hi Steve, I know you're a fair drive away from the midlands, but if you can get the bike up here I'll gladly have a nose. I'm an electrical controls engineer so happy to help anyone for that matter.


That's very nice of you, must admit I haven't done any more investigations as far too cold.....

Hopefully got a mates son coming over to look, he's a data tool installer and works at a major London dealers

User avatar Great Britain
sjrainsford
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:44 am
Location: Lichfield

Re: WONT START

Postby sjrainsford » Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:35 am

That's good. Hope he can sort it!
2001 BMW R1100S (Merecat)
2008 Vespa GTS300 (Bianca)


Return to “Boxertech”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests