1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

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Bozwold
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1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:13 pm

Hello chaps,

I've got a problem that's just appeared on my bike.

I left home on the Isle of Wight yesterday, and rode towards the ferry. After about 5 or 6 miles of gentle riding (nothing over 50mph, 2-3krpm) I suddenly got a very nasty metallic rattle from the previously sweet engine.

I stopped to have a look, but couldn't see anything, so gently carried on to the boat. Keeping the revs down, the bike sounded normal, anything past about 3k and I got a rattle again.

After an hour on the boat, the bike started up normally (just a little light rattle until the oil pressure comes up) and rode normally for about 5-6 town miles, whereupon the horrid rattle started again.

I stopped 7 miles from the ferry (home through the week), and idling the bike sounded normal. I took my helmet and jacket off, and with the bike stationary lifted the idle until the rattle started, but couldn't identify where the noise was coming from, because after about 30 seconds it stopped again, and I couldn't induce the noise again.

I've been out to look at the bike this evening, and it starts normally. I've had the starter motor out and checked the clutch, because I changed that about 500 miles ago, I was wondering if something in there had come adrift, but that's alright. I've removed the alternator belt, and the alternator bearings seem fine.

The oil level is fine, and pretty fresh.

So, any ideas for a really nasty metallic, but intermittent engine noise?

I don't want to run it much more, because something is very obviously wrong, but I don't know where to look. Maybe someone with more experience than me might have an idea.

Thanks
Gordon

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nab 301
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby nab 301 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:01 pm

Hard to tell , but any rattles on my bike generally disappear with revs. :lol: Is it engine or transmission ? pull the clutch next time it appears.
What year is the bike / there are the likes of the early 2 piece pushrods (hardened ends pressed in) which apparently can become loose when warm, didn't cure my noises!. The cam chain tensioners , normally just on start up, and cam chain guides can break but wouldn't normally be intermittent.
See if you can make a good quality recording and post it here?
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Nigel

Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you've been up to!
1999 R1100s (mandarin) '
'05 CBF250
'04 Breva 750
'06 Bonneville 790cc
MZ301 Saxon Fun ( currently retired)
'03 Bullet 65 project..

England
Bozwold
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm

Try this, maybe not so intermittent after all.

https://youtu.be/w7tht7untAY

England
ted
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby ted » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:49 pm

sounds a bit like a cam chain to me = poss broken guide or its maybe somehow lost its tension?

England
Bozwold
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:59 pm

I think you're right, it could be timing chain related.

I can't find my feeler gauge, (just moved house) but all 4 valve clearances are similar, and the springs look OK.

Turning the engine by hand, a little in each direction, I get a good bit of droop in the top run of the chain.

England
SP250
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby SP250 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Well as another pissibollity, it sounded more of a tinny noise than the cam chain.
If you find it is not the cam chains and you still have the cat in the exhaust system, it may be the internals loose - or springs holding aftermarket exhaust pipes.
John M

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ted
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby ted » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:58 pm

the fact that its still running something like would suggest the chain is in one piece but flailing around and rattling against the internal castings. The main danger if it keeps on running is debris in the engine. Best course of action may be to investigate if a tensioner has failed and hope its just broken into a couple of pieces and is sat somewhere nice and safe (fingers crossed)!

Theres some decent pictures on this site showing the guides and rails. Hopefully if you take off the covers you might be able to see enough to see if anything has failed
https://shop.maxbmw.com

have a look under the parts fiche section

This video might be worth a look but to me it would give a different sound - yours sounds more chain slapping to me
https://youtu.be/pRXeaequvzk

England
Bozwold
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:30 pm

SP250 wrote:Well as another pissibollity, it sounded more of a tinny noise than the cam chain.
If you find it is not the cam chains and you still have the cat in the exhaust system, it may be the internals loose - or springs holding aftermarket exhaust pipes.


No cat, and no springs on the exhaust either, damn it. Thanks for the thought though.

England
Bozwold
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:33 pm

ted wrote:the fact that its still running something like would suggest the chain is in one piece but flailing around and rattling against the internal castings. The main danger if it keeps on running is debris in the engine. Best course of action may be to investigate if a tensioner has failed and hope its just broken into a couple of pieces and is sat somewhere nice and safe (fingers crossed)!

Theres some decent pictures on this site showing the guides and rails. Hopefully if you take off the covers you might be able to see enough to see if anything has failed
https://shop.maxbmw.com

have a look under the parts fiche section

This video might be worth a look but to me it would give a different sound - yours sounds more chain slapping to me
https://youtu.be/pRXeaequvzk


I think you're onto something with the guides and rails. It was getting dark, but with the right rocker cover off, I couldn't see any type of guide or tensioner on the top of the chain. I'll look more after work tomorrow.

Thanks for your help.

England
Bozwold
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:30 pm

Well, the plot thickens.

The chain guides and tensioners seem to be present, both sides.

I've had the right hand rockers off, it doesn't look too bad, though there is a little wear on the rocker shafts, where the pushrod loads the rocker against the shaft.
The pushrods are firmly together.

When I turn the engine over by hand the top run of the right hand chain develops some slack as the inlet valves are closing - I hope this is just the cam being pushed round faster than I'm turning the crank. I hope that's not the problem, because I took the rocker cover off my R1100RS, and that was showing slack there too.

Both chain tensioners seem to be working.

I've run it up again, and using a listening rod, both cylinder heads are making nice noises. The front end of the engine doesn't sound untoward either.

So, do I take the front cover off next, or remove the exhaust and see whether anything is rattling about inside?

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Mitch1100
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Mitch1100 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:41 pm

I had part 23 (bracket up under seat) break, which produced an intermittant 'orible rattle...hope it's simple :?
https://shop.maxbmw.com/fiche/DiagramsM ... v=07242017
2009 HP2 Sport
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nab 301
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby nab 301 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:40 pm

Bozwold wrote:I've run it up again, and using a listening rod, both cylinder heads are making nice noises. The front end of the engine doesn't sound untoward either.

So, do I take the front cover off next, or remove the exhaust and see whether anything is rattling about inside?


It's easy to sit here and say so but it really doesn't sound to me like cam chain and as you've more or less confirmed this i wouldn't remove the front cover just yet, but I can't offer any suggestions yet... Try the link pipe on the downpipes , is there a baffle in there ? does the y piece have a cross bar that fits into the original rubbers in the frame?
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Nigel

Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you've been up to!
1999 R1100s (mandarin) '
'05 CBF250
'04 Breva 750
'06 Bonneville 790cc
MZ301 Saxon Fun ( currently retired)
'03 Bullet 65 project..

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GerryB
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby GerryB » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:04 am

Slightly off the subject , But last years I had a suspension problem , well thats what it felt like.....

Took me 3 days to discover the rear hugger had worked loose !!!

So , don't panic just yet, I'd change the oil, and look very carefully for any metal or any thing strange in there first.

If there is , then open the motor .

These bikes have a habit of misleading us as to where the rattle or knocking is coming from .
Old man ... now .
Ex Off Road & Enduro Rider...

England
Bozwold
Posts: 23
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:47 pm

Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby Bozwold » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:39 pm

At the moment, I don't think it's the engine, I'm sure that noise would have transmitted itself to the casings if so.

Bracket 23 is present and correct.
The Y piece has a bar and a rubber at each end - it is possible that the bar was contacting the frame at its left hand side, it would probably have been wise to investigate that before attempting an exhaust removal.

Mid-may through trying to remove it, I had a read up on exhaust removal, and now realise it won't surprise anyone that getting the exhaust off was a real chore, I've got 4 broken studs to extract and replace in the head too. :roll: They didn't have much strength left.

The link pipe clamp is giving me grief, although the nut and washer came off, it hasn't slackened off yet, so the pipe is stuck under the bike. I'm beginning to wish for a garage, and a bike lift.

Anyway, at that point it was getting dark, so I went to the chippy, and have now got beer to drink.

Thanks again for your help and suggestions.

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boxerscott
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Re: 1100S Intermittent Engine Rattle

Postby boxerscott » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:11 pm

I would look at oil level. The oil pump makes a racket when it is getting dry.
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