do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Pull up a chair - let's talk Boxerbollox

Moderators: Paul, slparry, Gromit

Great Britain
boxerscott
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: scottish borders
Contact:

do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby boxerscott » Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:59 pm

With my recent experience of purchasing an 18 plate 280 mile r1200 boxer engined r9t racer, privately, i am thinking some of the used r1200 engine bikes on offer (with clutch imminent replacement mileage) may be priced unrealistically?

has pcp influenced how we sell, buy and evaluate used bikes?

Who buys pcp hand backs?and who then sells them on?

is the used market for the private owner/seller FCUKED because of pcp?

Where is the money?
I am the Village Green Preservation Society. God Bless Strawberry Jam and all it`s variety.

User avatar Spain
GerryB
Posts: 473
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:40 pm
Location: Jacarilla , Spain

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby GerryB » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:47 am

I personally think PCP has absolutely trashed UK second hand market as far as selling !!!

Good as a buyer .

My second R1100 S , I couldn't get decent money for in UK , best offer was £1400 .....

I sold it in Spain for slightly more than I paid Al for it, and had 53 enquiries , with second one to look bite my hand off to take his money ....
Old man ... now .
Ex Off Road & Enduro Rider...

User avatar Scotland
Blackal
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Blackal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:35 am

I think there are several aspects of the apparent plummet in S/H values:

The market seems to be awash with fairly new bikes, which although bike sales must be down on what they were decades ago - reflect the number of people who are actually on the roads. PCP has brought new-car/bike ownership to people who would never traditionally contemplate a new purchase (for reasons of justification, principle or affordability)

If someone buys a bike new, at say £15k, and tries to sell that privately after 1 yr (or longer) - he might have expected to realise £12k? (Not sure of realistic fig, but no matter).

But - He is pitching that bike to a buyer who has the option of coming up with £12k cash, take a loan for it, or............. get a brand spanking new bike on PCP for a small deposit and £150/month. It may not be the buyer’s usual market (the new-bike purchase) - but is suddenly woo’d by the seduction of a new bike.

So - in order to sell that bike privately - the seller has to drastically reduce the asking price to get rid. This occurs sufficiently often to create the ‘new market value’ This has a knock-on effect on the price of 2yr-old bikes and 3yr-old bikes to a lesser, but significant degree.

It used to be, that the ‘saving on new’ price of a 1yr-old bike only had drop to ‘that seems like a worthwhile saving’. Now it has to drop to ‘that makes more sense than £150/month’

Great for buyers of S/H bikes though - pick up a pristine 3yr old bike with full history, bung £400/yr on warranty/breakdown cover (inc EU) and suffer much milder depreciation.

Sure - it was always thus (that the smart buyers bought at 2-3yrs), but entry at that level got even-cheaper since the advent of PCP.

Even a local small computer retail/repair business (traditional sales were less-well-known brands, compact PCs and refurbished business laptops) has now got an Apple ‘franchise’ to sell MacBooks and iPads on basically - PCP !

I read recently (on another forum) that the returned PCP bikes are not the liability of the selling dealer - but become the headache of the Finance Company? I had previously thought that the dealer was left with the bike and had to juggle figs to make it all work for them? Anyone confirm or rubbish that?

Hope all that made sense? :oops:

Al :D
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........

See if that works .....
:?

User avatar Wales
slparry
Moderator
Posts: 6191
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Wrexham
Contact:

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby slparry » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:10 am

Generally speaking people don't "return" their PCP bikes to the manufacturer, sure it's an option, however I've been at Motorrad for 3 years now and haven't had one handed back to BMW Finance yet. They just do a px to a dealer the same as any other transaction for a replacement.

As a dealership we then have them in our stock as used bikes, don't forget used bikes can be PCP'd too.

All the PCP really means is that instead of financing 100% from the outset you're just financing say half of that figure with commensurately less payments. The bike can be px'd at any point, if it's reached the point to have equity in it then that goes as deposit on the next one.

An extreme of PCP is say the current BMW Divide offer on S1000RR's ..... if I recall it's about 40% deposit (£6000 or so) and then £1 or so per month for 24 months. At the end of the agreement there will be about £2000 equity in it to go forward as deposit on the replacement. This of course means effectively "losing" £4000 or so, but that has gone to VAT, 12 months RFL, two years of ownership and depreciation etc.

Mileage restrictions only really apply if handing back, if px'ing mileages are between the customer and the dealer.

Whether traditional finance or PCP, neither machine is "yours" until the final payment is made. It's just with PCP the monthly payments are roughly half of what HP would be as it defers a chunk of value to the end. This means possibly and increase of expensive used bikes on the used market of course but they can also be put on PCP and it gives greater choice to the used market.

When I bought my F800GS BMW were offering them at £99 per month which was within my budget for a used one on traditional finance, so I got a new one, when the PCP was up I refinanced the balloon payment with BMW Finance to traditional finance, so I've basically paid half as much but twice as long as tradional HP from the outset, sure it's cost a little more in charges but at £99 a month I barely notice it :D

Don't be scared of PCP, it allows a lot more bike for little money and still retains deposit for the next bike. There's also the option of flogging your bike privately so long as BMW finance get their settlement figure any over is yours to keep :D
--
Steve Parry
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '07 K1200GT SE

User avatar Scotland
Blackal
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Blackal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:22 am

Thanks for that clarification, Steve.

Yes, I meant ‘hand the bike back at the end of the period, rather than take a new PCP’

So -

1). ‘trade it for a new PCP’ - it becomes the Dealer’s bike

2). ‘Hand it back to the dealer and go somewhere else - it becomes BMW Finance’s bike?

3). ‘Financial uncertainty’.

I guess No2 is attractive if a). Selling it privately would be a hassle/non-financially viable, or b). You want to change to a different make of bike.

(In my case, I just seem to get phone calls from salesemen about (seemingly) unrelated matters - and end up 5mins later - ordered a new bike.... :oops: )

Al :D
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........

See if that works .....
:?

User avatar Wales
slparry
Moderator
Posts: 6191
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:19 pm
Location: Wrexham
Contact:

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby slparry » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:45 am

Blackal wrote:Thanks for that clarification, Steve.

Yes, I meant ‘hand the bike back at the end of the period, rather than take a new PCP’

So -

1). ‘trade it for a new PCP’ - it becomes the Dealer’s bike

2). ‘Hand it back to the dealer and go somewhere else - it becomes BMW Finance’s bike?

3). ‘Financial uncertainty’.

I guess No2 is attractive if a). Selling it privately would be a hassle/non-financially viable, or b). You want to change to a different make of bike.

(In my case, I just seem to get phone calls from salesemen about (seemingly) unrelated matters - and end up 5mins later - ordered a new bike.... :oops: )

Al :D



1) yes
2) depends, a none BMW dealer can take it into his stock as a used bike, they just clear the settlement out of the px valuation, we do the same regularly with for example Triumphs. Triumph tend to make their monthly payments lower but have less equity built in which means less deposit to go forward.

3) ? not sure what you mean :D

Does the final statement mean I need to call you :lol:

by the way handing a PCP vehicle back to the finance company is not a good thing as you're generally losing any equity in the vehicle.
--
Steve Parry
“Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.” ― Mark Twain

Current fleet: '14 F800GS, '87 R80RS, '03 R1100S BoxerCup, '07 K1200GT SE

User avatar Scotland
Blackal
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Blackal » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:56 am

Ah-hah!

The 'financial uncertainty' - was someone who simply didnt want to sign up for a new or used bike on PCP or outright purchase.

No - I've too many bikes, and won't get suckered twice........... :lol: (I know - it was me who said: "tempt me" :oops: )

Al :laughing6:
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........

See if that works .....
:?

Great Britain
boxerscott
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:07 pm
Location: scottish borders
Contact:

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby boxerscott » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:16 pm

Blackal wrote:I think there are several aspects of the apparent plummet in S/H values:

The market seems to be awash with fairly new bikes, which although bike sales must be down on what they were decades ago - reflect the number of people who are actually on the roads. PCP has brought new-car/bike ownership to people who would never traditionally contemplate a new purchase.

It used to be, that the ‘saving on new’ price of a 1yr-old bike only had drop to ‘that seems like a worthwhile saving’. Now it has to drop to ‘that makes more sense than £150/month’



Al :D
That did make sense, excellent analysis. I suspect pcp works for some people but not for me. I think the current climate favours the cash in hand buyer. Interestingly the guy who i bought from works in the motor retail business, he bought from another outlet in one of his company`s franchises, so in effect he bought a pre registered bike ..at mates rates. He faced a depreciation of 1k in 6 months, which obviously was affordable to him. A bike he could not live with. Somewhere along the line 3k from the list price has gone into the Miasma. He told me he was inundated with enquiries from bike dealers... offering him 1k less than I paid. Everyone went away happy bearing in mind I also sold my used bike (to a dealer!) for more than i paid for it. Nice when that happens.

Chris.
I am the Village Green Preservation Society. God Bless Strawberry Jam and all it`s variety.

Great Britain
dave the german
Member
Posts: 3042
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:35 am
Location: North East

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby dave the german » Sun Dec 09, 2018 3:19 pm

I hadn't looked into all aspects of PCP and when I bought my GS I wanted to own it outright but with the car, I needed an newer reliable car and a mate works for Nissan and got me the friends and family deal and I basically walked into a Nissan dealer with £250 and came out with a new car. My plan was to see this deal out, do the same again then keep the next one and that would probably be my last car (factors outside my control permitting). In this case PCP was the perfect option. I don't "feel" the car is mine tho and I don't want that feeling with my bike, but never say never - it will depend on the deal at the time of renewal (not sure when that will be tho)
'15 R1200GS TE
'06 R1200S
'04 BCR
Yam SR 500 long term restoration
wanna win the lottery and ride my bike

User avatar Scotland
Blackal
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Blackal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 2:47 pm

Here's a theory planted in my head by a friend:

A small-ish main dealer keeps some fairly-recent models in his "used" selection - at sig higher than the market price.

This allows the dealer to illustrate to potential purchasers of S/H models - that when you compare the price of 1-2yr old cars - you would be foolish NOT to avail yourself of a new car on PcP. :shock:

So - potentially more new cars sold, and every so often punt on the 'decoys' - taking a bit of a hit on them.

Al :)
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........

See if that works .....
:?

Neil178
Posts: 653
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 11:24 pm
Location: East Mids

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Neil178 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:18 pm

Drifting away slightly ... it is similar to recorded music. Apple Music, Spotify etc. means that you no longer buy cd’s as you can listen to the music you like from your phone.
A tenner a month for anything you enjoy or ££ for each cd.
Showing my age but I like to read the lyrics and information provided with the CDs.
I think it goes back to the double gate fold vinyl LPs I first started collecting. It’s a tactile thing!
Many similar comments on various car forums. People don’t want to own a car now, just have a new one to use. Why own an old snotter when you can have the latest German hatchback for next to nothing?
It’s the new generation and I don’t belong to it!

User avatar Scotland
Blackal
Posts: 7859
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: do not want to piss on anyone`s parade, ..but..

Postby Blackal » Tue Dec 11, 2018 10:44 pm

I think that is a useful analogy, TBH

Not necessarily what people want though - what the businesses want - they want to hook you into continued spending - a predictable revenue stream, such that you lose sight of how much it is costing.

Subscriptions are the big business model.

I'm like yourself - I'll buy the CD and rip it losslessly (that doesn't look like a proper word :oops: ) and using Amazon - you get the MP3 version to download for free. Otherwise - if it is an odd track, I can download from Youtube too.
If I am ever on life support - Unplug me......
Then plug me back in..........

See if that works .....
:?


Return to “Boxerbanter”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests